Psychologist advised negotiator at siege to contact psychiatrist

Barr Tribunal: A clinical psychologist had advised the Garda negotiator at the Abbeylara siege to contact Mr John Carthy's psychiatrist some eight hours before his doctor arrived at the scene, the Barr tribunal has heard.

Mr Colm Regan, a senior clinical psychologist with the Irish Prison Service, told the tribunal he was telephoned by the Emergency Response Unit negotiator, Det Sgt Michael Jackson, at about 8 a.m. on the second day of the siege.

Sgt Jackson briefed Mr Regan on the Abbeylara situation, he said, and "indicated that there may be psychiatric issues involved".

Mr Regan said he felt he could not properly advise Det Sgt Jackson as he did not know Mr Carthy or his circumstances and was at too far a remove from the scene. "I explained it would be unwise and inappropriate to comment." He said he was aware Det Sgt Jackson was in an "immensely difficult" situation, so although he couldn't give specific advice he did speak to him about actively listening to Mr Carthy and "providing options in relation to a way out of the situation".

He then advised the negotiator that Mr Carthy's psychiatrist would be the most appropriate person to seek help from. Det Sgt Jackson told him that he was in the process of making contact with the psychiatrist, Dr David Shanley.

Dr Shanley did not arrive at Abbeylara until 4.30 p.m. that day, shortly before Mr Carthy was shot dead outside this home by gardaí.

Mr Regan said he was involved in policy development and training for the Prison Service hostage management programme, however, he had never been involved with a Garda hostage or siege negotiation course.

Some time prior to the Abbeylara incident, he had been asked to have some input into the Garda negotiators' course, but he said the course had been cancelled and he had no further involvement with it.

He said he had never before been called on by gardaí to assist in relation to a siege situation, and he was not aware of any agreement, formal or informal, between the Department of Justice and the Garda to provide such assistance.

"I didn't have, nor ever have had an agreement or role within the Garda Síochána."

Council for the Carthy family, Mr Paul Greene, asked Mr Regan if he had been aware, at the time of the siege, that his superior Mr Desmond O'Mahony had considered himself the mental health member of the Garda negotiation team. Mr Regan said he had not.

Earlier this week Mr O'Mahony gave evidence that he had been trained in, and himself given lectures to the Garda negotiators' course, but had never been called into action by gardaí.