O'Rourke backs Gilmartin story

Mahon Tribunal: The leader of the Seanad, Ms Mary O'Rourke, has backed up the claim by property developer Mr Tom Gilmartin that he met senior Fianna Fáil ministers in Leinster House in 1989.

Ms O'Rourke, who was minister for education at the time, told the tribunal yesterday that she was "very sure" she met Mr Gilmartin, "albeit in a perfunctory way", in the presence of other ministers.

She was also sure that fellow minister Mr Pádraig Flynn introduced her to the developer and that the meeting took place in a room opposite her ministerial office in Leinster House.

But she added that she saw nothing "untoward" in the meeting between ministers and a man who was promising to bring thousands of jobs to Ireland at a time when the country was depressed economically. "I thought it was a normal thing and I still do," said Ms O'Rourke.

Even though she says she was present for only 10 seconds, Mrs O'Rourke is the only member of the 1989 cabinet to support Mr Gilmartin's claim that a meeting took place. The other ministers either cannot recollect the meeting or say it did not take place.

Mr Gilmartin claims that he was subjected to a £5 million extortion demand immediately after leaving the meeting.

Ms O'Rourke's evidence differed from that of Mr Gilmartin in relation to the description of the room and the route taken in Leinster House to arrive there. She said there was only one door to the room, whereas Mr Gilmartin has described a room with several doors.

She said the room was on the first floor of the ministerial building in Leinster House, across the corridor from the office she used when in the Dáil.

She named the politicians who were present for the gathering as the then Taoiseach, Mr Charles Haughey, Mr Bertie Ahern, Mr Flynn, Mr Ray Burke and her brother, the late Brian Lenihan.

In his evidence, Mr Gilmartin had also placed Mr Séamus Brennan, Mr Albert Reynolds and Mr Gerry Collins at the meeting, but Ms O'Rourke said she had no recollection of these ministers being present.

Ms O'Rourke said she believed the meeting had taken place between mid-February and March 1989. Mr Gilmartin says it took place at the start of February.

Yesterday, Ms O'Rourke said it was "etched upon my mind" that Mr Flynn, before bringing her into the meeting, had said something kind about her mother, who had died in November 1988. She recalled that her brother had been there, whereas by April he was unwell.

On the day, Mr Flynn had knocked on the door of her office and invited her to meet a man who was going to provide thousands of jobs in Dublin.

She followed Mr Flynn across the corridor and he brought her into the room and introduced her to Mr Gilmartin "in declamatory tones". She remembered it because Mr Flynn had introduced the developer as "a man from your mother's country" (Sligo).

In the room, the "gathering" of ministers was coming to an end and people were "coming and going", she said. She did not stay for long.

Former Fianna Fáil TD Mr Liam Lawlor, who is representing himself at the tribunal, asked the witness if she remembered seeing him or anyone else "wandering around with a £5 million request on this forehead" at the meeting. Mrs O'Rourke said she did not.

The other ministers alleged to have attended the meeting will give evidence later this month.

Earlier, Mr Lawlor said it "beggared belief" that the tribunal would not be dealing with the issue of tax designation in the present module. Before continuing his cross-examination of Mr Gilmartin, he said that the developer had told the tribunal last week that three members of the government in 1989 had promised him tax designation on the Quarryvale site before any announcement was made.

Mr Lawlor said this concession would have been worth €50 million. He asked for clarification from the tribunal on the matter.

Judge Alan Mahon replied that the issue of tax designation would be dealt with in the next phase of the tribunal's work. This was the same module but the tribunal had divided up its work into two phases for convenience.

Mr Lawlor also complained that the tribunal was treating him unfairly compared with Mr Gilmartin. It "baffled" him that the tribunal had not taken more steps to seek cheque stubs in relation to the £50,000 payment by Mr Gilmartin to Mr Flynn.

Mr Lawlor said he had gone to jail three times over failure to discover documents while Mr Gilmartin's cheque stubs remained "in a biscuit tin in Sligo".

Mr John Gallagher SC, for the tribunal, said Mr Gilmartin had located some cheque stubs but these were not relevant to the current investigations.