Tonight is a busy night in the Lawlor household. School uniforms will be discarded and scout uniforms donned. It's Tuesday, time for the weekly visit to the local scouting unit at Donore Avenue, off the South Circular Road in Dublin.

John Lawlor will be bring his two children along to the scout hall, but he won't be leaving - he'll stay too. "In terms of involvement, I'd be slightly different from your average parent. We've two types of parents who get involved - the ones who were involved in scouting anyway, and then had children, and the ones who became involved with the scouts because they had children." As a unit leader, who has been involved in scouting since 1967, when he was 11, John fits the description of the former type of parent.

His son, 15-year-old John junior, has been involved in scouting since the age of six. Eleven-year-old Grace also joined at that age. John says that because scouting loomed so large in his life, he has to be careful not to impose it on his children.

"There's a big issue about giving them the space to be themselves, yet at the same time I have great belief in the sort of things they can learn through organisations like the scouts.

"My kids sometimes say to me: `I'm not going down to the meeting tonight because I want to go to a football match' or something like that," John explains. He tells them they can't pick and choose. "You can't say `I'm not going to the meeting tonight, but I'm going to the hike on Sunday because I like going on the hike.' It's part of the deal."

John avoids confrontation. "I avoid the `you have to go' cliche. I say `look, stand back and make the choice', but once you make the choice, you have to be committed." His children are not just asked to be in the scouts, they are asked to be a scout. It's not always easy, having your own child in the same section is rather like a teacher having their own child in the same class, says John. John describes the scouts as an out-of-school educational movement, which prepares members socially, intellectually, physically and spiritually. It fills the gaps that school hasn't filled, he says, such as leadership skills. Being in the scouts develops leadership - that's the movement's business, and has been its business since the start, he says. "Leadership is a very important skill. The scouts, particularly, have built that skill over many years, getting kids to work in teams."

In addition to his weekly section meeting, as unit leader John has to liaise with the leaders of four other sections and is involved in planning meetings every fortnight or so. He is also involved in activities such as hiking and camping once a month.

There are 65 children in the Donore Avenue unit, ranging from six to 17, and supervised by a group of 12 adult leaders. There are four sections: beavers for six to eight-year-olds; cubs for 8 to 11-year-olds; scouts for 11to 15-year-olds; and venture scouts for 15 to 19-year-olds.

In the 1980s, John was part of the lobby in favour of allowing girls to join the scouts - girls have been allowed to join since 1987. The change has been positive, and he says it is good for boys and girls to get used to working as part of a team. "They can accept they are part of an equal decision-making process," he says.

John says it has never been easier to get grants or harder to get leaders. He says it's a malaise that has hit all voluntary organisations. "I suspect that there is some sort of trend where people are not as giving with their free time as they used to be." Many scout units have closed down because of a lack of leaders, not children, he says.

"Getting parents involved is a big thing for us."