Mr James Gogarty denied yesterday he was on "a frolic" of his own when £30,000 or £40,000 was allegedly paid to Mr Ray Burke. He said Mr Joe Murphy snr knew about the payment.
Mr John Gallagher SC, for the tribunal, said Mr Garrett Cooney SC (for the Murphy group) had alleged that in paying money to Mr Burke in June 1989, Mr Gogarty was on a frolic of his own. Mr Cooney said he had never used that phrase, the chairman had said it.
"Well, somebody used it," said Mr Gogarty. Mr Cooney quoted the chairman's remark. Mr Justice Flood said he would take responsibility for the phraseology.
Mr Gallagher then quoted part of the transcript to Mr Cooney and he said that from it, it was clear and unequivocal that Mr Cooney had said that would be their case. Mr Cooney said: "I never used the word frolic . . . Now would Mr Gallagher stop this childishness."
Mr Gallagher asked: "Mr Gogarty, were you on a frolic of your own when the £30,000 or £40,000 you have deposed was handed over to Ray Burke by JMSE or on behalf of JMSE?" "There was no frolic by me," Mr Gogarty said.
Mr Gallagher asked if Mr Joe Murphy snr knew about the payment to Mr Burke at any time. "I'm quite certain he did," Mr Gogarty said. He rang Mr Murphy snr who wanted him to go along and keep his eye on Mr Murphy jnr.
Mr Gallagher asked if he had had a subsequent conversation with Mr Murphy snr regarding money or any possible approach to Mr Burke. Mr Gogarty said it was raised at the "fatal" board meeting on July 3rd, 1989.
Asked if there had been any other discussions with Mr Murphy snr about the money, Mr Gogarty thought he had mentioned it again a year or two later.
"It was at the funeral of his wife, Una, the Lord have mercy on her. I went up and shook his hand and I sympathised with him . . . he said, whether he was serious or not, he says, any chance of getting the £40,000 back . . . I think he meant that I'd get it back from Bailey."
Mr Gogarty said he did not take it seriously. Mr Gallagher said Mr Gogarty was saying there was a payment of £40,000 in June 1989 to Mr Burke and there was a prolonged dispute about the pension. Mr Gogarty said: "That's right."
Mr Gallagher asked: "Were you at any stage asked by Mr Murphy snr, Mr Frank Reynolds, Mr Murphy jnr, or by Mr Copsey or anybody else to return the £40,000 that had been paid to Mr Burke?"
Mr Gogarty said: "No." Asked if he had been asked to account for it personally, Mr Gogarty said: "No, Mother of God, what would they be looking to me for?"
Mr Gallagher said evidence would be that he was on a frolic of his own. Mr Gogarty said there was evidence that Mr Copsey knew about it, organised it and it was from his (Copsey) funds.
Mr Gallagher asked if Mr Gogarty asked Mr Tom O'Keeffe, Murphy accountant, to go to the bank to get the money to pay Mr Burke. "Not at all, not at all, not at all. They had already got the money. They had it there," he said.
After this evidence, Mr Justice Flood said he would adjourn the tribunal until next Wednesday to allow participants to prepare for cross-examination and to give Mr Gogarty a rest.