Seanad reform hearings: Plans for major reform of the Seanad would have to include its expansion to take in more members, both the the Taoiseach, Mr Ahern, and Fine Gael's Mr John Bruton told a parliamentary sub-committee yesterday.
More representatives from Northern Ireland and other groups, such as emigrants, were called for at the review of the compositions and functions of the Seanad being carried out by five senators, chaired by the leader of the Seanad, Mrs Mary O'Rourke.
Yesterday, submissions included the issues of political interests and Northern Ireland.
While Mr Ahern and Mr Bruton envisaged an expansion of the House, the PDs called for it to remain at 60 seats, and for radical reform to avoid its abolition.
Mr Ahern said there had to be Northern representation.
Senator Joe O'Toole (Ind) said the picture that was emerging was for a universal system, including Northern Ireland representation and emigrants, which meant there would need to be 75 members. What would the Taoiseach's reaction be to that?
Mr Ahern said: "Having stated that I believe that there has to be two Houses, and I believe there has to be Northern representation, then the only conclusion you can come to is that there has to be more members.
"If you're asking me if I'd be 'shock horror' at having a bigger Seanad, then I'd say no, I don't see how you can square yourself if you don't."
Senator Brian Hayes (FG) asked if direct elections would be required to get a cross-section of Northern voices in the Seanad.
"I think there clearly has to be Northern representation. I do not think it has to be an elective system," Mr Ahern replied.
The expansion of the Seanad was also advocated by former Taoiseach Mr Bruton.
He said Irish emigrants should have a vote in Seanad elections, and that three seats in the Seanad should be allocated to emigrants.
Asked if he would agree with an expanded Seanad, Mr Bruton said: "If you're going to change the Constitution which you'd have to do to make changes, then there is no reason why you shouldn't add another 20 seats to the Senate."
In the PD submission, Senator John Minihan said the party agreed with published comments that the prime task was to define a viable and creative role for the Seanad, and only in failing that should an option of abolition be revisited. The PDs proposed a national list system to fill 49 of the seats, necessitating the termination of the university and other vocational panels. Sectors including disability, Northern Ireland, diaspora, the arts, education and agriculture should be included.
For the SDLP, Mr Sean Farren said there should be an electoral college for the North, maybe made up of councillors, MEPs and MPs, which would agree the number of senators. If not, then a fixed number of senators should be nominated by the Taoiseach.
He said the principle of having a fixed number of senators from Northern Ireland should be firmly established.
In the Sinn Féin submission, Mr Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin TD said party policy for a long time was for the abolition of the Seanad but that had changed, and now it believed in its democratic reform.
He said the Seanad was undemocratic and elitist.
It should be elected by universal suffrage of citizens throughout the 32 counties, those resident in Ireland for more than five years. over the age of 16 and emigrants.
The Alliance Party proposed that two or three of the Taoiseach's nominees should be from the North and reflect all views.
The review will continue in the Seanad chamber until Friday.